Fluoridation arguments.
Okay, I took a look at only one of the articles you sent me yesterday, the last one I think which was the blog that just had a bunch of quotes that had a lot to do with Fluoride. I did not even complete the list because it was midnight and if I closed my eyes at that point it would be nearly 12:30 before I was asleep. Anyways I say fluoride because some of the quotes were only about fluoride and not about fluoridation. A lot of them were about the adverse effects of fluoridation, but almost all of these were studies or papers on the effects of naturally fluoridated water higher than the recommended levels. Some studies had the levels of fluoridation at four or more times the recommended highest level of water fluoridation.
One study suggested that hip fractures and fluoridation were strongly correlated, but looking at the data suggested a second outcome. The information suggested that the lowest rate of fractures on hip bones was at fluoridation rates comparable to that in municipal water. There was no significant difference between no fluoridation and municipal rates, it should be pointed out, in fact there was no difference. Only when the researcher compared extremely high fluoridation to normal or no fluoridation was there a significant increase in hip fracture rates. So here lies the problem: one, scientifically literate anti fluoridation people chose these studies and ignored the actual findings. Two, anti fluoridation people exceed the recommended levels of fluoride to show that there is an ill effect to prove their point. Three scientifically illiterate people see an article that supports their stand point and refers to the study without dissecting the actual results.
I am not going to claim which is true, but I will say that scientists have been known to embellish their findings and write more exciting titles in hopes of getting publicity. Because, really, since Einstein, has there been any rockstar scientists?
Anyways, what it looks like is a coverup of the facts of life, everything in moderation, too much of anything is bad too little of some things is bad too. Iron, magnesium, zinc, copper and many others are micronutrients that you need to live, too little and you begin to die, too much and you begin to die. Moderation in everything. To little fluoridation and you start to get cavities, (dental poor health can lead to death) too much is bad too.
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I am about to agree with you, in the first world, we don't need fluoride in our water, because we get it in other ways, like toothpaste. We don't need it because we have a robust dental program and many people have dental insurance, however, not all do and that would be the major reason for universal dental healthcare. We don't need it because of all these things, but it does do one other thing, it says that it is safe and it is something that poor countries can do, poor regions can do, to prevent cavities and to prevent tooth loss and to prevent potential infections too. As long as it does not cause harm right?
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One of the things that this article, blog post of sources, liked to quote was YouTube videos. Really? The overall video might be considered one piece of evidence, but not each individual speaker, especially a video transcript that figured Mystery Person, which I guess was an appeal to the commoners. The scientists that were quoted could be researched. At least of them were strongly associated to FAN a site that is noted for the number of flags that are associated with Conspiracy Theory Websites.
At this point I feel that I should step away from the last statements, because it sounds like I am attacking the messenger and ignoring the message, but I am not. When someone publishes a research paper and they want to be considered legitimate, they seek interviews with legitimate media and avoids conspiracy websites. When AIDS denialists, 911 truthers, and other fear mongers of the "New World Order" begin to advocate for you, you are in trouble. A few of the sources are in this class.
The other thing about the anti-fluoridation crowd is that it is very old, right from the beginning in the forties and fifties people were against fluoridation. They used the arguments of the day to argue against adding health care to the water. It is a communist plot. It causes cancer in the seventies. Each time, it was debunked and now this.
Recently Waterloo Ontario was trying to decide whether it should have fluoride in the water or not and the No side posted this cunning picture:
http://www.waterloowatch.com/Index_files/Swallow%20Don%27t%20Swallow%20-%20Which%20Fact%20Is%20True.pdf
Take a look at it. There are two things that you should see, lots of math and lots of scientific notation. There is a reason why they do that: most people are scared off by math and science notation, but most people trust presentations in science, because it is proven fact. The problem here is that they are misleading.
The first set of equations are not lies. They set forth a series of calculations to determine how much fluoride by mass there is in any given volume of toothpaste. I followed it, it looks right. The third calculations show how much fluoride there is in a glass of water, that looks on the ball too. I missed the second set of calculations, because it is the lie. The second calculation takes the first answer and converts a small amount of toothpaste and calculates how much fluoride is in a child serving. Except the first calculation calculates the amount of F in a volume and not a mass, as the second calculation does. They either skipped a step and did not show their work, or they are misleading people. Of course the warning on toothpaste is more about children swallowing the entire tube of toothpaste in one go, as children are likely to do than swallowing a pea sized amount. Misleading people about something is lying.
Using quick math and the numbers that are given on that picture, the amount of fluoride in a 100ml tube of toothpaste is 0.15 g, or 150mg. So, if you were going to consume and equivalent amount of water to get 150mg of F, you would divide 150 by 0.7 or you would have to consume 214.3 L of water. Also if you continue the lesson they would have you learn, a glass of water is 0.3L of water, so a tube of toothpaste is equal to over 700 glasses of water. They are then by comparison suggesting that a child's toothpaste would last for nearly two whole years. I love math, it does not lie.
Anyways, I see that you are not amused by this, if a child ate a tube of toothpaste call 911 and induce vomiting, but if your child did not spit, it is not a real concern provided they had a recommended volume of toothpaste.
Here is me going back to reading the endless list of articles.
Incidentally I really loved the letter that was presented as evidence that said nothing on the subject at hand what-so-ever: http://www.fluoridealert.org/wp-content/uploads/epa-masters.pdf
I guess nothing means something?
Here is a quote: “Hydrofluorosilicic acid (HFSA)… Due to the OH & S implications associated with the handling of this chemical, Fluoride dosing is accomplished under very strictly controlled and monitored conditions” (LMW n.d.).
Here is the complete quote:
‘Fluorodose’ process in which sodium fluoride is used to add fluoride to the water at Robinvale WTP. This system is used for small to medium installations to significantly reduce OH&S issues and improve ease of operation.
Hydrofluorosilicic acid(HFSA)dosing system at the other WTP’s.Due to the OH & S implications associated with the handling of this chemical, Fluoride dosing is accomplished under very strictly controlled and monitored conditions.
Come on, what are they doing?
Okay I started this one next and the very first link talked about Aluminum Toxicity and how to avoid it. The first way to avoid excess Al is to not get vaccinated!! An anti-vaccination site! Okay I clicked to see what this site is promoting: the healing power of the Pyramids among other things.
Second link to the same source as before.
Not backed up with proof is this line: The pure form of sodium fluoride is so toxic that by just consuming a small volume of it could kill you. It does not suggest a dose. They are suggesting that any dose is lethal, from a nanogram to what ever they consider a small dose, which could be a tablespoon. From this example everything could be considered lethal. Water, if too much is consumed, will kill you. Iron, to much of that and you are tits up. Too much alcohol and you are dead too. Too much fluoride and you are dead.
NaF is more toxic than some rat poisons, that is why they regulate how much you can put in water or in toothpaste.
Then the put in a direct quote from PreventDisease.com. Except that there is no evidence on that site, just assertion after assertion. And by that I mean on that site they did not even offer the pretense of offering proof for their statements.
Fluoride spill eats through concrete. From the video, it is clear that there was no concrete involved only asphalt. Semantics right? This is all about concentration. pH is base ten logarithmic scale, each increment is ten time greater or lesser concentration than the one before. Concentrated form it is dangerous, but after a dilution of a million times it is safe. Let us do some comparisons, pH of 2 is stomach acid, apples are about 3.5 meaning stomach acid is about 50 times as acidic as an apple. A pH of one is ten times as acidic as stomach acid and so about 500 times that of an apple. Fluoride is diluted from its highly acidic form to that of a million times less, or six orders of magnitude, six plus one is seven, a pH of seven, neutral.
The sources of this article, are the one above, PreventDisease.com as discussed already and another article with no sources, which is about Arsenic in the water.
Arsenic in the water interesting, second paragraph, the cancer-causing metallic element… the American cancer society says yes, interesting they also say that As in the water is strictly controlled at 10ppb. Interestingly arsenic is bad for different reasons, it is a close fit for Phosphorus and so the body will substitute Ph for As sometimes so it will cause errors that way too. Arsenic is also more of a danger in untreated water than treated water, so that is funny too, considering the source this article is against is treated water.
Tomorrow, 50 reasons to oppose Fluoridation, oddly be the same source as the Arsenic paper with no sources . . .. http://fluoridealert.org/articles/50-reasons/
Okay the problems with this site are multiple. First it is self referencing. That means it refers to itself to prove its point, eg the world is flat, I said so in A, B, and C. If you look article A it says there is an edge to the world, as I said in B, C and D. Look up B and it says the world is supported by four elephants standing on a turtle, as I said in A, C and D. Look up C and it says the Sun orbits the Earth as I said in A, B and D. D was the first article.
Second, when there is an article that they reference, the article says nothing that proves that statement that it is trying to say. Fluoride causes low IQ, but the article never mentions how much Fluoride the subjects consuming. When it does mention the amount of fluoride being consumed, it is well above the amount in our water system. Indeed the finer detail of the article says that there was no effect on IQ from low levels of Fluoride as the levels in drinking water.
Thirdly, the proof in some cases has been thickened up by adding studies twice to the same proof. Once the article listed as proof that towns were removing fluoride from the drinking water, it listed San Antonio Texas at the start and at the end of the list.
For a more comprehensive review of one part of this website try this:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/12/02/anti-fluoridation-crankery-how-1960s/
Okay, a couple of there things I found out about fluoride. It has a body half life of about eight to ten hours. A body half life is the amount of time that it takes the body to expel half the substance. It is similar to a half life of radio active materials, but that is where the similarity ends. Other half body times that I know of the top of my head are Methyl Mercury, 70 days, Ethel Mercury, 3.7 days. From this you can see that it has a comparatively short stay in the body
More math: let us assume that you drink 4L of water every day and the fluoridation rate is N even 1mg/L of water, which is pretty generous as most anti-fluoride people admit that it is 0.7g/L. Let's assume that you get it all at once, which is extremely unlikely. So you have 4g in your body, and since I chose a higher concentration of F to work with and assumed it was introduced all at once for math ease, let us also take the faster of the two half life times, 8hours.
After 8h, half the F is gone leaving 2g, after another 8h another half is gone leaving 1g and finally after another 8h the amount of F left in your system is 0.5g. that is after one day, following that example after two days you would have 0.0625g in your body. After 3 days approximately 0.008g, at 4 days, 0.001g, 5 days 0.0001g, 6 days 0.00002g and one week after you would have 0.000002g of Fluoride in your body from the initial 4g. Wait I hear you saying that you are adding 4g every day, what is the most F you could have in your body? Add it up, and you get a whopping 4.572522g of fluoride at most in your body and that is if you consume it all at once every day, which is very unlikely. It is much more likely that you will have less than three grams of fluoride in your body at any given time. All the credible research suggests that this amount of Fluoride in the body is safe. Double and quadruple this value and you get an unsafe number that is correlated to lower IQ and bone fractures
So I must conclude that from that available research, low levels of Fluoride are safe and help prevent cavities and high levels are not safe and may cause lower IQ and more bone fractures. I say may, because the sample size of these studies was still quite small between 70-40 subjects to increase the certainty of their findings they need to up the sample size, keep in mind that the CDC studies have a million times as many participants. The other conclusion is that some people do not like that available evidence and further their point, make up or use information in misleading ways to make their stance seem reasonable and to create hysteria in the general public. As evidenced by Doug Heal's letter to the editor: http://m.parrysound.com/opinion-story/4187710-get-toxic-fluoride-out-of-our-water-reader/ where he cites all the same things that the pseudoscience peddlers promote, but none of the real, hard scientific facts.
I also conclude, that while safe, removal of Fluoride from Canada's drinking water will not negatively impact the dental health of anyone who can afford to see a dentist regularly. Oh wait, fluoride in the drinking water means that it is in the majority of Bottled Water (which is typically bottled tap water) and fruit juices and soft drinks, which means the majority of liquids people drink, is fluoridated. Removal of Fluoride may have a greater affect than to just the people who drink tap water, but still if you brush your tenth with fluoridated tooth paste your saliva will protect your teeth for up to two hours between brushings. So in First World countries, where toothpaste costs .02% of the average wage removing Fluoride will not greatly affect people. But in Developing countries where the cost of toothpaste with fluoride represents up to 4% of their wage, fluoride in the water or the salt or any other carrier, becomes more important.
Still, keeping Fluoride in the water posses no threat to people and does provide additional protection to the very poor in our society, who may not understand the importance or may not be able to afford proper dental preventative care.